More than we asked for
Continuing on the slow news week theme, here’s something for that hangover morning — a Burn documentary, opinionated by a bunch of people most of us never heard about. Of the redeeming qualities, it has input from the ubiquitous Glenn Hughes, and from John McCoy (of all the people). The archive footage includes bits of Doing Their Thing, the Leeds Polytechnic project, Cal Jam, and the Last Concert in Japan.
Thanks to Uwe for the heads-up.
I still have this on DVD. I bought the Rainbow 75-78 one too.It was useful for the Live in London audio dubbed onto the live footage of Burn.Of course what we really want is a Classic Albums presentation on the Burn album, with meaningful input from the surviving members.
December 30th, 2024 at 21:41Some of the commentators in that video are/were journos for Classic Rock Magazine and other UK rock publications (Malcolm Dome and Jerry Ewing for sure). I see that frequent Purple / Rainbow biographer Jerry Bloom had a hand in the production of that video as well. It’s the first time I have seen that particular presentation, and I think it was very well done, and gives an excellent overview of the Mark III years, particularly the stellar Burn album. Glenn Hughes’ contributions were certainly key to the success of that record.
December 31st, 2024 at 01:31I gave up on this half way through when the so called Guests and narrative was sooo far off the truth …I mean Bron being with Ian in the early 70s !!…And Roger leaving of his own volition!!
December 31st, 2024 at 01:47Come on , at least do your research…there is so much guff on you tube , it’s not true !
I think even John McCoys bits were filmed years ago !
Yeah, this came out around the time of the 30th Anniversary remaster/remix of Burn, though not in any way affiliated as a release, it’s a more-black-than-purple Jerry Bloom venture.
So let’s not be too critical of some of the statements, we’re all the wiser 20 years onward. (Though I feel honor-bound to clarify that Ian Gillan was always more than just a “heavy metal shouter”! And there were no “hits” on Burn either, though the material was collectively very strong, no single song charted or gained the significant FM radio play of some of the Mk II staples.)
For a fresher appreciation of the album watch this by an Australian and a drummer (no, not the inimitable Herr MacGregor himself, it’s actually two people):
https://youtu.be/zGxugIc6QTg
Me? I don’t have to put down the underrated WDWTWA to appreciate the greatness and freshness/immediacy Burn had and has retained to this day. While WDWTWA saw Purple experimenting with PROG influences again (after the relatively straightforward Machine Head), Burn jettisons all PROGishness (with the exception of the Burn – the song – solo parts of Jon and his “A”-200 tour de force) in favor of what is essentially US-flavored stadium rock (with Blues and Soul/Funk influences thrown in) that still shows original Brit grit (that grit would be gone on Stormbringer though I like that album too for – much like WDWTW two years before – attempting to broaden the band’s musical recipe, but yeah, Stormbringer is so smooth and glossy an album, it sounds slippery and very LA in places).
But man WHAT a monster stadium rock album Burn is – fucksolutely brilliant!!! It set off the era where, to my ears at least, Ritchie triumphed as a guitar stylist, honing his idiosyncrasies to perfection.
Innocent question for Karin, have you actually ever heard Burn (the album) in full or is it ‘verboten’ terrain for you after you have pledged yourself so completely to Ian Gillan?
December 31st, 2024 at 02:16It is worth noting that on that tour DP played seven songs at each concert, five of which were from the new “Burn” album , which speaks volumes about the time when bands were infinitely braver than today, but also about the kind of album it was.
December 31st, 2024 at 12:52Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
i have the album very good show
December 31st, 2024 at 12:56Ivica, make it six songs from Burn, they sometimes played What’s Going On Here too, not just at the very early Mk III gigs in December 1973 as here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx34LuA59as
but also – albeit infrequently – on the 1974 US Tour.
So the only songs from Burn never played by Mk III live were – incongruously so – the brilliant Sail Away (to me the strongest number on Burn next to the title track) and the underrated instrumental “A”-200 (which would have made a nice piece within Jon’s live solo spot).
December 31st, 2024 at 17:12is gleen touring new jersey this year ?
December 31st, 2024 at 17:57Not yet apparent, Smitty:
https://www.glennhughes.com/tour.html
But it’s still early days for 2025.
December 31st, 2024 at 21:56Hi Uwe
January 1st, 2025 at 20:30I’m sure you will know the answer to this …What was it that Jon said so complimentary about Ray Manzarek ( of The Doors )
I got into The Doors a few years back ( fantastic band ) …and I seem to remember Jon saying something on one of those rock music documentaries about Ray …and for the life of me, I can’t find it anywhere!
Your help would be very much appreciated
Steve, I have to pass on this, I’m not aware of any specific Jon quotes on Ray (or vice versa), couldn’t find anything either, but the influence of latish 60ies US organ-led bands (Vanilla Fudge, Iron Butterfly, The Doors) on Mk I especially is obvious, One More Rainy Day always sounded très Doors’y to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLhYajHZ9rk
I would imagine that Jon would have had something nice to say about Ray’s lyrical approach though that was very much down to the latter’s “a piano player playing organ”-style (in the early days at least), something Jon always consciously tried to avoid. Ray initially played keyboards mainly as a melody and harmony instrument (plus of course bass with his foot pedals when The Doors did not have a bassist performing with them), Jon was – when he didn’t solo – Deep Purple’s Keith Richards or Rick Parfitt, he determined the rhythm of the band to a great deal playing very tightly with Little Ian.
As with a lot of musicians at the time, there was an inherent respect of DP for The Doors as counter-cultural icons that forged a trademark sound with a singer writing deep poetry – Ritchie is on record for explicitly deeming Ian Gillan’s neo-Jim Morrison look in 1969/70 attractive for Mk II’s future, this was way before he knew that a little girl called Karin in Denmark would one day be smitten with the chosen singer! 💜🤷♀️
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2HWEYBC/ian-gillan-lead-singer-of-the-deep-purple-rock-group-pictured-in-the-royal-pavillion-gardens-in-brighton-east-sussex-after-it-was-announced-he-would-be-playing-the-part-of-jesus-christ-in-a-pop-opera26th-june-1970-2HWEYBC.jpg
https://www.licensestorehouse.com/p/767/ian-gillan-lead-singer-deep-purple-rock-group-21680263.jpg.webp
I mean it’s not for nothing that DP have covered Roadhouse Blues and that Big Ian has sung other Doors songs both as early as with Episode Six
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNgygG04md8
and even more recently in his career:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK3gACseqh0
And wasn’t Riders On The Storm the taped outro (or intro?) track on the Black Sabbath Born Again tour?
Even a band like GHOST pay reverence to The Doors to this day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyxrzUe_TDM
This will be considered heresy by all Jim Morrison fans, but Ray wasn’t a bad singer either:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBTNtkMh05A
And if I dare say, by 1977, when Ray had the criminally underrated Nite City running, I venture the guess he had given Jon Lord a few listens in the meantime (he plays a lot ‘choppier’ than before) or at least declared to his fellow band members: “BTW, since I am paying for all this, I want my Hammond to be mixed as loud as this guy from Deep Purple!!!” 😂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e847NbuFjkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-a-QoIIY9w
January 2nd, 2025 at 01:12Given that Gillan and Glover were brought into the band as a strong songwriting team. Glenn was writing in Trapeze but surely Coverdale was an unknown. What was Plan B if Coverdale and Hughes weren’t able to contribute in the same way?
January 2nd, 2025 at 09:17Uwe
Fantastic insight and comments, thanks very much for taking the time to do all that . I know I didn’t get the answer I wanted but I got way more then I asked for ( exactly as this thread suggests ! )
I can remember Jon’s comments were on one of those late night documentaries about music ( around 2008 to 2011) …I’m pretty sure it was about Ray playing the bass lines on his left hand ..with a Vox Continental?
January 2nd, 2025 at 10:37At the time , I only thought The Doors were ” light my fire ” etc …little did I know!!
Anyway, Thanks Uwe and a Happy new year
thanks wue! 😉
January 2nd, 2025 at 12:46Actually, the did have a bass player in 2005 in Atlantic City. Ian Astbury joined Manzarek, Krieger and a bass player and drummer whose names I can’t remember. I love the Doors albums, but I never liked any live stuff by them, they always sounded thin, and Morrison just didn’t seem to cut it live, of course he was probably drunk anyway.
January 2nd, 2025 at 13:01DeepOz, as you said, Glenn was already a prolific writer in Trapeze, their songs were generally either written by Mel Galley and his brother Tom (he of Phenomena fame) or by Glenn alone.
DC already wrote (not so bad) songs in the late 60s, he could play acoustic guitar and a little piano, some of his 1968 home demos are on the recent The Solo Albums boxed set release:
https://youtu.be/dvFT3l8tm4E
https://youtu.be/MVXHRmTQCtk
https://youtu.be/4kznVHPxLBc
https://youtu.be/JyfHGX9HizU
And ballady as they are, those songs all sound a lot more timeless and 70s contemporary than what DP put on their 1968 debut which all still breathed a prominent mid 60s vibe! 😂
That said, DP hedged their bets a little: DC was only presented to the world press as the new singer AFTER the songwriting sessions in Clearwell Castle leading to the Burn album’s recording in Switzerland (for tax reasons) had been concluded. Whether someone has own songwriting ideas or not is something you notice pretty quickly once you start jamming with him. And where Ian Gillan had often only revealed his vocal melody ideas to the band once a track was more or less instrumentally finished, DC chipped in his ideas early on which Blackmore liked because it gave him more of an influence on the finished vocal line. What he wanted heard in his mind and what Big Ian would come up with had been a bone of contention during the recording of WDWTWA which is why Painted Horse (where Gillan’s “out there” vocal line failed to please Ritchie) was shelved in the vaults. It certainly didn’t sound like something Paul Rodgers would have come up with:
https://youtu.be/Vc_9PHHrd2k
That was already very much the type of unexpected vocal melody that would become a trademark of Ian’s singing in IGB and GILLAN a couple of years later – far too outlandish for Blackmore who prefers more conventional vocal lines.
January 2nd, 2025 at 14:56Smitty, “wue” is the most Asian sounding variation of my not really translatable first name yet, cảm ơn, I finally feel like a Vietcong general! 😁
https://www.album-online.com/photos/prev/M2Q0NjEzMA/album_alb5485815.jpg
January 2nd, 2025 at 16:32@ 11 @13
Coincidences
“Now What” was released in April 2013, a month after May 20 Ray Manzarek died
A beautiful tribute by Don Airey – to the great Ray ….( “Riders on the Storm”)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBfqURqESf0
January 2nd, 2025 at 17:58They actually ( The Doors ),used Elvis Presleys bass player …I think for Morrisons Hotel and LA Woman …I can’t find the Don Airey version of Riders on the Storm ?
If you look on you tube, you’ll see them doing a great version of ” When the musics over ” at the LA Bowl ….and that’s a great example of Ray using his left hand to play the bass notes …( I’m sure this is what Jon was so complimentary about ) but if the fountain of musical knowledge, Uwe can’t find it …nobody can ! ..pity though ..
January 2nd, 2025 at 20:12Uwe
January 2nd, 2025 at 20:20Massive thanks for posting Gillan doing light my fire …never even knew it existed…let alone heard it !
Where did that come from ?
@ 12 – DeepOz – Gillan & Glover were not brought into DP because they were a ‘strong songwriting team’. Gillan was approached for one reason, his vocal or maybe I better mention his looks too. Karin will crucify me If I don’t, not to mention Uwe. Regarding the songwriting, it just happened to gell with Blackmore, their ideas at times with Ritchie. Any good lead vocalist should (but not necessarily always) have an inkling for melodies, lyrics etc. Glover just happened to be there it seems & yes he has also contributed nicely. Blackmore has a nous for talent so Coverdale or anyone else at that time would have worked ok in regards to the songwriting and as you mentioned, Hughes was also there. Cheers.
January 2nd, 2025 at 21:01I’m not a keyboard player, Steve, but I found a few quotes on a keyboard forum site
https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/147012-the-doorsray-manzarek-thread/
A Rob Hammer holds:
“Manzarek, along with Lord, was a major formative influence in my early years. I’ve just started working with a Doors tribute, we are only a couple of gigs in, but things are coming together.
At the moment I’m using Hammond XK1 – of course it’s great for the Changeling and Wild Child but the Voxy sound is not quite there. Hope to get an SK2 later this year, not heard the Vox / Farfisa voices yet but imagine they would do the job
Technically playing Manzarek is very different from playing Lord (I did a few years in a Purple tribute), but the challenge is in getting that style down. I do have the luxury of a bass player though 😀”
And a Joe P observes:
“Me and my band mates are starting a Doors project. We have a good singer and were all pretty enthusiastic about the music.
I’ve always liked Ray Manzarek and The Doors, but this is a pretty steep departure, keyboard-wise, from what we normally do, which is rock and blues covers, a lot of Allman Brothers etc., typical piano/Hammond type stuff.
So there are no organ sweeps or Leslie speed changes or pentatonic piano solos. Its all that Vox/Gibson organ playing, which is a completely different style. There is also a load of honky-tonk piano, harpsichord and some Rhodes.
What has really fascinated me, though, is Manzarek’s use of thirds. Everything is thirds – comps, solos, intros everything. I’ve never encountered anything like it. I knew he used thirds a lot, but the extent to which he uses them is amazing. They’re in every song, one way or another, so much so that its beyond a personal style and more like a keyboard-playing philosophy.”
The last quote reminds me of an interview Jon once did for a keyboard magazine where he said he had to GIVE UP thirds when he made the transition from piano to organ because “You have to be careful on an organ with thirds, it very easily sounds too sweet then”. So that is where his approach obviously differed from Ray’s.
But obviously not to the total exclusion of the other: When The Stranglers became popular in the Punk era, they were initially regularly derided as The Doors clones due to Dave Greenfield’s prominent and sprightly keyboard lines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgzDQwWygAc
Poor Dave heard the Ray Manzarek comparison so often that eventually he burst out in an interview:
“I’ve never listened much to The Doors or Ray Manzarek, the only tracks by The Doors I knew (before joining The Stranglers) were Light My Fire & Riders On The Storm. My main keyboard influence is Jon Lord! And after him Rick Wakeman.”
Which in the Punk era was a brave thing to admit! Come to think of it, Dave wore Jon Lord influences not only on his sleeve, but also more conspicuously on his face! 😂
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/05/09/obituaries/07GREENFIELD/07GREENFIELD-mediumSquareAt3X.jpg
http://www.strangled.co.uk/images/news/DaveRaven.jpg
[For the non-musicians: The third is within a triad consisting of ‘root note + third + fifth’ the note that decides whether the chord is major (happy sounding) or minor (darker or more somber sounding), a minor third makes the chord a somber minor one, a major third (a half-note up from the minor note) makes it a major chord, letting it sound sunnier. And when you listen to The Doors you hear that – because very often the keyboard parts sound either happier (major) or darker (minor) than Jon’s work who would regularly leave the thirds away completely on organ thus not defining a chord as major or minor.]
January 3rd, 2025 at 00:04Steve @20: looky here (it’s available under two titles, but the track lists are identical) …
https://cleorecs.com/products/a-tribute-to-jim-morrison-the-doors-cd?srsltid=AfmBOopgC2vc2d66b0NgcIQ348sJ6QDf_alPkHlqX0-CCCT1cLVjUYu6
https://cleorecs.com/products/light-my-fire-a-classic-rock-salute-to-the-doors-cd?_pos=11&_sid=4e3b72222&_ss=r
A lot of these tributes are dodgy, but this one isn’t. Joe’s contribution is nice too, variable as he is, he emulates the Jim Morrison growl nicely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5-DDprfbXk
And if we feature the Russkies-lovin’ kid from New Jersey, the widowed hay farmer from Florida deserves a mention too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9lyp5EaJNw
And Graham is (second tier) family as well, although he sings so deep here, you hardly recognize him at first:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8-Gaf8iQuo
Finally, the reborn christian from Flint, Michigan, is unrelated, but gets a honorary mention here, I have a soft spot for Grand Funk Railroad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgPGK5OFpqM
1. L.A. Woman Feat. Patrick Moraz
2. Love Me Two Times Feat. Lou Gramm
3. Roadhouse Blues Feat. Leslie West
4. Love Her Madly Feat. Mike Stein & Mick Box
5. Riders on the Storm Feat. Joe Lynn Turner
6. The Crystal Ship Feat. Edgar Winter
7. Intro (People Are Strange) Feat. Keith Emerson
8. People Are Strange Feat. David Johansen
9. Touch Me Feat. Jordan Rudess & Steve Morse
10. The Soft Parade Feat. Graham Bonnet & Steve Hillage
11. Hello, I Love You Feat. Ken Hensley & Roye Albrighton
12. Spanish Caravan Feat. Eric Martin & Elliot Easton
13. Alabama Song (Whiskey Bar) Feat. Todd Rundgren & Geoff Downes
14. Break on Through (To the Other Side) Feat. Mark Farner
15. Light My Fire Feat. Ian Gillan & Rick Wakeman
16. The End Feat. Pat Travers
Produced by Billy Sherwood
January 3rd, 2025 at 07:40“fountain of musical knowledge”
🤣
My fountains used to be a lot lower, Steve, but at my age you’re happy about any compliment you can get your hands on!
Herr MacGregor, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that Ian & Roger as a songwriting team were irrelevant to Ritchie, Jon & Paicey, Blackmore always liked to have a songwriting foil and neither Rod nor Nick had excelled in that department. Going forward in the summer of ’69 (Bryan Adams always claims how that song is not about a particular year, can’t he hold his tongue about things like that I cry?), Purple must have realized that they needed to up their ante as regards own material to be taken serious so any help should have been welcome. Ian & Roger were certainly frustrated about Episode Six focusing on covers and even had qualms about Hallelujah, their first recording with DP, which they deemed a bit cheesy and too similar to the material they had been doing with their former band.
Recently, I came across this set list of Ian’s and Roger’s first gig with the others as Mk II:
https://www.purple.de/dirk/purple/tours/1969/69-07-10.php
QUOTE
10 July 1969 – London, Speakeasy Club – UK
Deep Purple
INFO
It happened to be Mark 2’s first live performance, as Ian Gillan recalls “I felt absolutely elated at joining Purple. When I first heard them I had never been moved musically so much in my life. At the time Deep Purple were the greatest band I could join. It made me realise I had to work much harder than I had ever worked before.”
Ian Gillan
“These were the guys I fronted on 10 July 1969 on a tiny stage at the Speakeasy in Margaret Street in London’s West End. I stood before my peers that night – pros, other musicians and people in the music business. As soon as we started, the place went ‘Wooah’. It was awesome, and I just coasted through – the feeling of power indescribable. I played congas, for want of something to do during an instructional, and I cried – oh I cried.”
Ian Gillan talks about his first performance with Deep Purple
set list:
Hush
Kentucky Woman
Hallelujah
Bird Has Flown
Wring That Neck
Paint It Black
Hey Joe
Mandrake Root
St. Louis (Uwe: the Easybeats number also covered by Warhorse and Nick Simper’s Dynamite …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFubEd2QA8w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goWOE9zM3Uc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6UzpJChOKw )
UNQUOTE
Man, I would sacrifice a nut to have a recording of that gig with that set list, but it also shows that there was obviously a dearth of own material fledgling Mk II deemed fit to play live, only three songs were their own!
January 3rd, 2025 at 08:17@#17: Uwe, being married to a Chinese I can confirm that “wue” is a legit pronounciation of Uwe in quite a few Asian languages ;-). It’s just not defined yet, in which tone it shall be pronounced so there can still be lots of different meanings associated to it!
Fun fact: as Chinese writing is not a phonetic writing (i. e. the different signs don’t represent vowels or consonants but only meanings; hence you have the same signs all over China but they may be pronounced completely differently) it’s quite a challenge to represent a Western name in Chinese writing. So my in laws usually refer to me as Ka- Ri – Stoffu (if you pronounce these syllables in a German way).
Thanks for your explanation of the Thirds! This will be my next phonetic adventure (besides my futile attempts to dive into correct Chinese pronounciation) to listen to a few Jon solos as opposed to Manzarek solos
January 3rd, 2025 at 11:28Uwe
You most definitely are an OCEAN of musical knowledge! Thanks so much for your replies .
I never knew The Stranglers keyboard player was influenced by Jon ….but, I can definitely hear it now .
I am going to get that Doors Tribute CD ( I can’t believe that had gone under my radar ) ..I hear Joe ( who I’m not a fan of ) singing exactly as he did on S/M …and you’re right, this does sound good .
I’m surprised Gillan didn’t feature them in his top 20 bands !? He had CCR in there and The Kinks …but hey ho …
January 3rd, 2025 at 13:09I notice on his vocal delivery , he underplays the word ” Fire” ( not like Jim , who obviously accentuates it ) …this is obviously deliberately done by Gillan , who, you will notice , normally puts a high emphasis on things like that ( check out ” Gimme some loving on TTC ) …I guess he deliberately wanted to do something different to Jim’s original vocal
Actually, I’ve just had an idea , as it’s a slow news week …and if The Big Chiefs that run this site don’t mind …why doesn’t everyone reading this thread , list their top 5 bands ?
I think we obviously know who most people’s no 1 will be ! ( be very interesting if it’s not !!!)
But, also, we might get some other influences and bands to check out …
I’ll have a think about mine …probably, something like
Purple
Doors
Gillan / Rainbow
Be interesting to see what everyone else has ….
January 3rd, 2025 at 13:30@ 16 Uwe Hornung
@ 21 MacGregor
Thanks for the information and correction.
I recall Coverdale saying that for Burn he wrote something like 10 sets of lyrics, were the other 9 sets of lyrics used in other songs, either in part or in full?
January 3rd, 2025 at 13:56@24 – Yes, it would be great if a recording of that, or another early MKII gig, ever surfaced.
How cool to hear a Purple version of “St Louis” and a MKII version of “Hey Joe”!
Surely only two songs were MKII’s own, though?
“Hallelujah” counts, presumably? Though MKI had likely run through it at some point, and Nick certainly was present for the initial recording.
And “St Louis”, since the Easybeats’ version wasn’t released in the UK until June 27 1969, too late for the then no-longer-rehearsing MKI to have played it. Even if Purple had heard the song in advance of its release, Nick has denied that it was ever part of MKI’s repertoire.
The other seven tunes were all part of the MKI songbook.
The notion of Blackmore liking to have a songwriting foil is something that only began with MKII, when he became the dominant composer.
Prior to that, when Lord took the lead as much or more than Blackmore…
Rod was always able to deliver lyrics that suited the music, whether it originated with Lord, Blackmore or a plagiarised riff (“Mandrake Root”). Often pretty clever stuff.
@21 – Yes, Blackmore has stated that he wanted Gillan as a singer due to his high-pitched screaming. And Morrison-esque looks.
Prior to joining Purple, Gillan and Glover had no track record as hit songwriters. Nor, as it turned out, were all their early Purple lyrics an advance over what Rod Evans had been capable of.
Different styles, so in many cases, eg. “The Shield” vs. “Child In Time”, it would be like comparing apples to oranges.
Some of the material, though, like “Flight Of The Rat” verges on doggerel.
January 3rd, 2025 at 17:22@ 24 – “I wouldn’t go as far as to say that Ian & Roger as a songwriting team were irrelevant to Ritchie, Jon & Paicey……”
January 3rd, 2025 at 22:05Uwe where did that word ‘irrelevant’ emanate from? Anyway the gist of the situation was a harder rock style lead vocalist was needed desperately & of course the melodies & words will hopefully accompany that individual. Glover tagged along and as they needed a bass player he was the perfect foil as he was associated with Gillan already. I couldn’t imagine both of those gents would have been well known as a ‘songwriting team’ at that stage of proceedings. That hopefully comes (and did) with their initiation & we have also noticed that scenario develop with other bands, well some of them. A huge step up from Episode Six to Deep Purple, in more ways than one. There are probably two ways to look at Ritchie’s rock music career in that perspective. Either he had a wonderful ‘crystal ball’ in that hat that he wore, or he was incredibly fortunate with certain individuals who he happened to bump into at his various musical interludes over time. Cheers.